Ok Why? No seriously. I don't want to get into an unesseary arugument, especailly over something so silly. But just answer me, what is so DAMN wrong with their official artwork!?Franzyfan1998 (talk) 17:54, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
- Not wrong per se, but I think they were a bit too big for a box that's supposed to have just some basic information about a character. There aren't really a whole lot of wikis that would go for a full body shot instead of just a picture showing a person's face. - Sligneris (talk) 15:58, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
- I really don't see the problem in using the whole body. And Professor Layton Wiki allows ful body images, and they're a lot more concious about keeping spoilers away from the viewer. And another point, (and I'm not supporting you if you change it) it seems pointless to have a close up of DD Phoenix when we have full body images in the article. It just seems like unnessasary work you are instigating. I am going to put my foot down on this subject and i rarely do that!Franzyfan1998 (talk) 17:54, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
- Then go ahead, participate in an edit war in attempts to repeatetively undo edits that no one but you objected to. Either way, I'm not going to stop simply because of you obstracting these changes.
- And, by the way, Layton games are not a valid example. The characters there are way too cartoony, unnaturally short. While it works there, it doesn't mean it has to here. I'd better compare it to anime wikis, like, say, Shingeki no Kyojin.
- This arguement is getting stupid. And How are ANIME wikis a VIDEOGAMES wikis' equal. Of course I don't expect animes/live action shows to have full body images! It's a freaking TV show! TV shows can use screenshots! That's fine with me! BUT we have the full body images, we should use them. And if PRofessor Layton is not this game's equal, as they are as you put it too cartoonish some 3D examples. KIRBY, KINGDOM HEARTS, SUPER SMASH BROTHERS, LEGEND OF ZELDA, MARIO, BULBAPEDIA (for the most part) and FINAL FANTASY!
- And if you're treating it like an anime why don't you do screenshots?! HM
- Also if the full body images are so large, you shrink it. It's not like it's not optional! You have the ability to size it down.
- Please answer me one queestion and I may retract my objections. (May). Why is it so DAMN nessasary to have the profiles, and to make the edits, when it was never nessasary in the first place!?Franzyfan1998 (talk) 23:39, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
Your aggressive tone/edits and interesting spelling/grammar is starting to make it difficult to take you seriously Franzyfan1998 (and the editor in me is finding the urge to correct your spelling almost overpowering; there is obviously something wrong with me). At the risk of sounding incredibly patronising (for which I apologise in advance), please just calm down, take a deep breath, and remember that we're discussing a relatively minor video game wiki here, not anything important. Let's just work things out here first before you both go charging off and start
knocking over the stuff I had nicely arranged engaging in edit wars.
I believe Sligneris' basic reasoning (feel free to correct me here Sligneris) was that he was unhappy with the large size of the full-body art in the infoboxes, and thus wanted to have nice close-up images of the character's faces instead. This would also have the side-effect of standardising the size of the image in the infobox, which can often be inconsistent across different pages, as well as create a sense of consistency across character pages by having them all be mugshots, making the difference in image less jarring between main characters with lovely full-body art (e.g., Phoenix Wright) and characters that only have mugshots (e.g., Dustin Prince). I will admit I am still not 100% sold on the idea, but since he start implementing it (slightly before it was actually agreed on, but whatever), I've started to warm to it. My main reasons for this are the aforementioned size and appearance consistency, as well as making the infobox look more like a police file on the character (which I quite like).
I will admit, however, that Franzyfan1998 does have a point; drawing comparisons with anime wikis is a bit daft, especially since I can't think of a single videogame wiki offhand that doesn't use full-body OA, and can even think of a couple of anime wikis that use full OA. A possible compromise idea I've been toying with has been using something similar to this, with tabs that can be used to change the displayed image (obviously without clicking said tab changing the entire infobox in the process, as is the case in the linked example). Ideally, on this wiki, a mugshot of the character's most recent appearance would be the default, with full OA in chronological order (including the most recent appearance) following it. I could have a go at this if you guys would like, but 1) my understanding of templates is a bit... iffy, 2) I'm kinda busy with real life stuff at the moment, and 3) it's past 2 o'clock in the morning where I am and so a bit late for complex faffing about with templates.
- Look I too want Dustin and Phoenix to have full body artwork and for their templetes to be the same, but aside from changing everyone's profile to well their actual profiles listed in the games, it will be quite impossible. For one thing Phoenix has a lot more friends than Dustin. The profiles are not the only thing making the difference. and I think one solution would be to just resize the profiles to like 120px or 150px.
- Now out of respect for the mediator I won't rechange it, for the momemt, but i still think this really unnecessary. The profiles or whatever.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 02:09, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
- The problem wasn't only with the size though. Most of the images were artbook scans, which had a whole lot of color inconsistencies. I will admit that the full body art of Phoenix didn't look so bad, even while I think it was too big. But, what would you say about Grossberg or Maggey? Not so neat and consistent anymore, is it?
- As a general rule, the right thing to have done would have been to discuss the issue with other wikia members before jumping the gun, so to speak, on what is evidently a big overhaul. I myself do not have a problem either way, but if this is the "accepted" way, then we really should do the other characters too...otherwise it'll just look awkward. CrashBash (talk) 17:56, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, on that matter, I actually wanted to go ahead and change some more profiles already, but seeing there seems to be an objection about that, it would be uncalled for to just go ahead and continue, without any "solid" word on it... I'm kind of conflicted on what I should do here. - Sligneris (talk) 22:19, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
- While I do concede that Grossberg is not as full body as other's, Maggey has three so if you don't like one you can pick another. Personally I would pick Tres Bien's outfit. Also If it is not trouble, could you expand on the whole problem with the artbook scans. It's a little ambigious or the correct word.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 23:22, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
There we go, isn't this much more cordial? ^_^
Franzyfan1998: Examples of what Sligneris is talking about would be Media:PhoenixWright-AA5.png for a high-quality image and Media:Lance Amano.PNG for a more crudely-edited lower quality artbook scan. I'd like the character templates to be 1) more unified in appearance and 2) much shorter for some characters (I'm looking at you Nick), and feel that achieving both of these is possible; I have thoughts on this, which I'll go into in a bit.
Sligneris: Concerning replacing the more minor characters' mugshots with higher quality ones, I had no problem with that. It was really more when you started on characters that had full OA that I kinda went "hmmm..." to myself. But, as I stated before, I've warmed to the idea since. Concerning further changes, I'm more or less alright with you continuing, but still think figuring out some way to have both mugshot-style images and full OA in tabs might be a good compromise.
CrashBash: Pretty much what you're saying.
I've had a wee think and come up some thoughts for character template changes, with the main aim being to have them consistent across characters and make them less cluttered:
1) Tabs for images, as previously stated. I've tried to figure out how they work by checking out a few wikis I knew to use them, but my attempts have so far been completely fruitless (mostly due to said wikis using far more complex templates for their characters than we do). Any help would be appreciated.
2) Remove the friends, family, and affiliates sections and put them into a character tab called something like "relationships"; basically a more drastic version of what Sligneris has suggested in the past. Or we could do as the Layton wiki does and put the details of that characters relationship (e.g., former client) in mouse-over text.
3) Combine character names in different languages and their meanings/puns into a table (like Bulbapedia does) either under the current "Name" section or into another character tab. Alternatively, non-English names could be placed in a collapsible section at the bottom (à la the Layton wiki).
4) Make Actors and Miscellaneous a collapsible section.
These would reduce the current template to just aliases and biological information, with Actors and Miscellaneous (and possible non-English names) in a drop-down section, as well as having the character image a consistent size via a mugshot. I'll try to create a prototype in my sandbox when I get the chance; a picture is worth a thousand words after all. - Strabo412 (talk) 17:16, June 17, 2014 (UTC)
- About the whole artbook scans, I kind of see the point, but it seems like nitpicking if you ask me. It's not that obvious or at the very least, it's not that distracting.
- Now Strabo412: some comments. I think making the relationships section collapsable would be the much simpliar solution. And I check the wiki on my I-pod, and mouse over is making it a bit too complicated. To the bulbapedia idea, I see the point and actually the more I think about it the more it makes sense. But it does get a bit complicated with all the nicknames and one-off pun names, and I stil thik we did the right thing in simply making it collaspsable. Also the GK2 can't be the same so... My head hurts.
- Personally I think were making a big deal of nothing the more we can into this discusion.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 03:02, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, it just seems there are at least two other users who seems to have no problem with the changes, while only you oppose. Thus, I just thought I wouldn't hold back any longer with it, and, more or less, decided to ignore you ^^; I also don't recall agreeing to anything, sorry. I held back for a moment, because of your objection, but at the current point in time, your whole activity seems to be just - and I won't put it gently - whining about things. Also, this page's point was to decide between several alternatives of profile images so I would really appreciate if we could stop making over a half it a giant wall of text. Perhaps we could move this discussion somewhere or at least stop increasing it in size? - Sligneris (talk) 10:09, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
- Well I wouldn't put it past you...... Also I know you are planing on putting them elsewear but seriously I do question your solution on where to put the full body artworks. It is quite confusing to have the cropped image and the full image almost literally right next to each other.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 12:53, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- We're in the process of implementing Image and Sprite galleries. You could say Phoenix Wright article would be a good example. - Sligneris (talk) 12:56, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- I undersatnd. Now I'm going to state this very clealy. I fund your actions to be quite annoying too. I do not wish to do ths all day. I have plans in a few hours. Now about the artbook scans I still don't find them all that troublesome. PLease elaborate as I'm sure other people are getting bored of our fight and want to see real nessacery editsFranzyfan1998 (talk) 13:02, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- We're in the process of implementing Image and Sprite galleries. You could say Phoenix Wright article would be a good example. - Sligneris (talk) 12:56, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- Aren't we going off-topic? I mean, this whole ordeal is about whether we should use cut portraits or full body pictures. Quality has actually nothing to do with it. Just cast your vote below (that would be "oppose" in your case, and then, after the voting ends, let's follow the decision made. - Sligneris (talk) 13:16, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm trying to go back to the issues we had prior to your barging in with your rudeness. But If it will please you to waste more time instead of getting HQ pictures..... Then heres is some news. Some of the profiles are fine. However some are not (Larry). However, I am still unconvinced they were even needed in the first place. If I am repeacting myself I am sorry. I want equaility as much as the next guy but I doubt that the artwork changes will make what you want done.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 13:28, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I wouldn't call you "polite" either, to be perfectly honest... Also, discussing the profiles was the very point of Forum:Character Profiles thread, so you can talk about your preferences between the profiles there. Larry used the HD sprite of his "idle" sprite before that, but I felt like it didn't really capture his essence like official art did. - Sligneris (talk) 13:50, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- Pardon me going off topic now, but where did you get this gif of Yumihiko from? We are currently in the need of GK2 sprites and this one seems to be nicely animated.
- Attention? I don't care about that. All I wanted is to make InfoBoxes look more like profiles for these character, and I think the cropped images do the trick quite nicely. - Sligneris (talk) 14:30, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- Ok first things first. I got the Yumi picture from tumblr, but really got it from google. I think i have a few others, not sure if it's the same quality. Really it's a shame we can't access the GK2 sprites as easy as those from the triolgy, AJ, and AAI.
- Ok now back to the topic at hand. I still commend you for your efforts but this is a wiki not a college yearbook. I doubt the general public cares if the wiki looks like a database (formal websites). Wikipedia doesn't even do that. Anyway. Point 2: I have to ask. Why are you cropping the pictures. If you want it too look like a profile, then why don't you just use the mugshots? Either way it seems you're putting a lot of work on yourself. And last point: I checked the article last night and found out that no matter which solution we choose there will always be at least one person who can not be like the others in terms of profiles.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 18:38, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- That's funny you mention Wikipedia, because I'm pretty sure it usually does just the same thing I do: uses photos of face only instead of a whole body, or at least, uses half-body photos. Also, "general public cares" is your way of saying that you don't care? Even if you don't care, then what's it a difference to you? I just don't see any consistency at all between your actions and your arguments...
- Question: Why do you twist my words to your convinience
- Ok) First off Wikipedia. Didn't we just wrap that arguement up(or something similar)? It has to depend on the circumstances. Besides the point was your making things way to formal for something as minor as a wiki.
- Second) "I doubt the general public cares" means what it means. Outsiders to the wiki aren't concerened with these sort of things. Also, since you are being very impolite about it, DON'T LUMP THEM IN WITH ME! (Not to say I'm incorrect or bad, however it is iinsulting when i make a point and you twist my words)
- Third) About my unfinished thought I meant: DAI LONG LANG! The guy with no profile!
- And Finally: quite dodging my questions. Why not use the mugshots?Franzyfan1998 (talk) 19:44, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- First, I don't see how "outsiders won't care about this edit" argument would influence making such an edit. The more wiki improves, the better. I don't care whether someone cares. I do care, so I contribute.
- Also, I thought about characters like this one and they just won't have a HD profile, is all. Instead, perhaps I'll try to put more effort into upscaling it and removing the background, like I did with Cece Yew.
- I thought of using mugshots, but I came to the conclusion it would be nice to show a little bit more of the characters that have actual official art or HD sprites. So, part of the chest is included. Well, they are literally "character portraits" after all. Not to mention that mugshots for non-Trilogy character does have mugshots of a good enough quality.
- When should we close the voting, by the way? Do you think we can give it maybeee... 3 days? - Sligneris (talk) 20:02, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- "First, I don't see how "outsiders won't care about this edit" argument would influence making such an edit. The more wiki improves, the better. I don't care whether someone cares. I do care, so I contribute." That made no sense. Also if you don't care that someone cares about this or not, how does that solve anything. I think you just proved my point in saying your selfish as well.
- Your second point: That hardly seems fair after everything you said about making every character equal! (And you wonder why I call you a hypocrite) (Seperate note Cece has seen better days)
- Third) More nitpicking on your part about the whole mugshot not being as high as quality as the beloved triolgy! If that's the case just go back to their old mugshots Court-records still has them available. With your standards it's almost impossible to make it equal!
- Finally: 3 days is no where near enough. Consider someone is on vacation and doesn't have internet connection (By choice or by location) It wouldn't be fair for them to be left out of the vote. 2-4 weeks will do nicely.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 20:18, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- I don't even know what you're talking about. You respond with either nonsense or direct attacks, or some weird "outsiders don't care!" and "it isn't equal!" pleas. This feels to me more like excuses more than anything. I mean, outsiders don't care? Fine, let them not care. How does it change anything about this wiki's improvement? Some character's can't have high-quality profiles? So, some characters won't, not like it in any way supports having full character art as Infobox image.
- You made too many badly constructed arguments against the change itself, but made literally no effort to explain to me why the old pictures should stay as Infobox images. Because you say so? But at least 3 other people say otherwise, as you can tell by the few votes so far.
- Also, are we supposed to do the voting on how many days should the voting take? Really, I'm pretty certain there will be no more votes, because there is simply no more regular editors. And like you said yourself, outsiders don't care. So, I'll ask other users - do you think 3 days is enough?
First Off: I realize that I am not the wiki master I never said I was. Again you are twisting my words and that's not fair!
Second: If the it isn't equal pleas aren't good enough for ou kindly answer: Why did you change the profiles in the first place. I believe it was something like creating a consistancy for the characters. How is your solution creating the perfect solution. Answer: IT DOESN'T! It may create consistancy between the majority of the characters but it simotaneously creates a bigger gap between those who have the cropped and those who are stuck with low quality photos.
Third: As to the voting you aren't being fair mister! Just because they aren't regular editors doesn't mean they shouldn't get a say! 2 weeks! And what's really the differerence anyway. So you have to wait a little longer. It seems as though you feel threatened and thus closing off opinions tat could get in your way!
Fourth: You want the reason the Old pictures should stay! I'll tell you. You're wrong! The Old pictures make this wiki look better. Professional isn't always the same as good. Wikis if treated correctly are homes to the characters we admire. And we shouldn't make other's work to see the glorious pictures that are the OAs. They should be able to see it as the first thing. That's what I loved about this wiki. We could see fully what each and every chacter looked like head to toe. And they should be treated thus so in their rightly place as the images in the profile boxes. They are beautiful and shouldn't be cropped. That is not only disrespectful to the characters but tot he people who drew them. You can enjoy the cropped pictures but they will never replace the OAs fullness and love we gaev to them.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 21:07, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, whatever. How about 1 week? I'd say it'd be good enough as a compromise. I don't feel threatened, I'm just an impatient person and don't like waiting too long to make simple edits that at the same time are a big change I've been working on for a while and I feel quite uncomfortable to be forced to stop working on it. Not to mention that I don't like such a weird inconsistent mash-up these articles are now and were before.
- You never said such things, and I never said you did. However, you behave in this manner. You disregard everything anyone else says, and just go around with your own preferences being decisive reason to undo any and all changes, regardless of the fact everyone agreed on this before. It's a fact, and you can't change it, regardless of whether or not you agree.
- Oh, also, I should note. To make sure none of us tries to forcibly increase the amount of votes by using any kinds of alternate accounts, I'd say we should only include votes of users that had any kind of activity before the voting started. That way, none of us will be able to cheat, to get the voting end on our favor. - Sligneris (talk) 21:29, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- 1 1/2 weeks should do just fine. Like I said the other users could be on vacation for a such a time and I want to gice them as much time to think this through. Everyone deserves it. (And i feel uncomfortable too about these mix and match edits too but I will wait patiently as should you!)
- Now the second topic: You are dead wrong about that! That is the most disgusting thing you said all throughout the arguement! When I fixed Phoenix to the way I thought was correct (I did so because it seemed very out of place) I asked why did we change it. And you never answered. You just immedietly changed it back. And you gave me "Oh we already decided on that." answer the next time i asked. How long was it before you proposed the idea to you going through with it. Did you consider "maybe i should wait until more than 3 people agree with me" or go on right ahead. Also I repeactly tried to call a truce in the last 24 hours and you ignored me.
- Please Crash, I apologize. I'm not trying to come off that way. I'm sorry if I am. Part of me is ready to give up. I want to. But he just keeps acting like I am vandalising something without even listenting to what I have to say. Slig is acting like he's the victim and he's giving as much as he is getting. And he's contradicting himself and acting like he can do that while judjing me for doing the same thing. These were never needed. I'm sorry! And I still wonder is the only reason for these changes just to make it look the wiki look prettier. If so than I am right. I honestly can not remeber Slig saying his motives other than to make the wiki look better. You guys provided the explanations and I was starting to get on bored when he just assumed I was never going to be convinced! He was impatient and shouldn't have cut in. Again I'm sorry for sounding like a brat but from my perspective I'm not the only brat.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 23:04, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- Huh? I contradicted myself...? I would honestly like to hear these contradictions exposed, if possible.
- Uh, what motives can there be for changing profile images other than visual overhaul? I believed my actions and motives were pretty straightforward here - I believed full character art to be too zoomed out to actually see the character's face well enough, so I cropped the images and used bigger image size to make faces and head more visible. I didn't bother to explain that, because the explanation doesn't make it more clear than just looking with one's own eyes ans seeing for oneself would. - Sligneris (talk) 23:27, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- I strongly dislike repeating myself. First let me ask you a question. Did you want to make the characters be on a more equal playing ground. at least in appearance.
- Second. There was nothing wrong with seeing their faces. Unless the image is oddly shapped. I find that it didn't enhance them but made them look more distant. And some of the images look odd to say the least. Why is this so importatnt to you. I'll make a comparisson so you can see my point as I am tired. What you are doing is putting the tinsle on the fully decorated Christmas Tree excpet more annoying. You only do it beacuse it looks cooler, when it looked perfectly ok without it, even better in fact as not everyone is a savant on how tinsle should be hung.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 23:40, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- Well, yeah? I believe they look quite neat now on Category:Characters, except for the ones I didn't change yet.
- You honestly shouldn't question things like why people care. People care, because they feel this way about one thing or another. Don't ask why something is important, just acknowledge that it is, because you asking this won't change anything nor bring any progress...
- I don't know which profile pictures look "odd" I could consider changing them to different ones, if there are some that are somehow troublesome.
- I also don't really get either your comparison, nor I see what it has to do with the current situation. I believe everyone else agreed these cropped profile images look good like this... - Sligneris (talk) 23:50, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
- PS: Use Source mode sometimes. I'm tired of having to constantly remove one colon from each line on your posts.
- Pheww. Well anyway about the comparrisison. Imagine the Christmas Tree. Imagine how long it took to put in those lights. Then how long it took to put the ornaments. Now It looks goregous! And you feel accomplished! Then your mother gives you tinsle. You feel bad beacuse you never liked the tinsle. And you hate putting in extra time on something that will serve little to no purpose other than getting on your nerves sepecially when you consider the effort it will take to take down the tinsle after Christmas. You wonder, is it really worth putting up. The tree already looks beautiful. Will it add anything to the magic that is Christmas.
Hm... I actually have more profile pictures at the ready, but merely a day passed, not even 3 days and this discussion is getting inactive and I am getting a bit impatient... Let's be honest here, how many people come back from holiday just to take part in the argument on the wiki, or especially in a week-old argument, since this thread's going to get pretty dusty in this long period of time, buried under lots of others wiki edits. Even if there's going to be maybe one extra voter, it won't change anything... So, can I finally keep up with my work, or will you insist further...? - Sligneris (talk) 23:48, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
- I-I I'm sorry. I admit it. I was petty. I was a jerk! It was not wise to change the wiki and go into pointless arguements. I truly thought that the mugshot thingies or whatever you call them were useless. But I guess I am going to have to get used to them now aren't I. I am sorry that I caused this wiki to go go through our pettiness. (Side note- Thanks for bearing through this). I hope you can forgive me or at the very least understand why I wanted the old OAs to remain the same. It's a difference of opinion I guess. Niether one of us were right nor wrong. If you don't forive me I understand.
- I thank you for putting off your edits for as long as you did. That did mean a lot that you were willing to nogotiate (You know what I mean). I hope we can can get along in the future. Again I am sorry for acting like a child on this subject but well it may be lame but I am kind of a hot head and arrogant. Or at least at times. Have fun finishing the edits, though I would wish if you would wait for more people to give their opinions but whatever you do is up to you. I am not your boss or any sort of superior. Again I am sorry, and I won't hinder your progress any further.
- You were an annoyance, in a way, but I wouldn't cal it horrible or unforgivable, don't worry. Just somehow annoying. As you said, it's more of a matter of preference and the fact you don't like the change and felt the need to debate about it was completely fine - the problem started when it escalated into an edit war, both on your and on my part. Don't be too worried about the full OAs, though. They'll always be there, available in the image galleries either way. - Sligneris (talk) 08:17, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
This matter became quite a nuisance and debating won't quite change a thing, so I propose a simple solution, really - a voting. Let's just say each user will say here whether they Support or Oppose the new, cut profile images. Then, after a few users have voted (there aren't many more, really), the decision will be made and will be enforced on the wiki. Good enough?